“The study of sexuality is often hindered by therapists themselves, who simply do not know how to ask the right questions,” says psychoanalyst Otto Kernberg. We talked to him about mature love, childhood sexuality, and where Freud went wrong.
He has sharp features and a tenacious, penetrating look. In a large carved chair with a high back, he looks like Bulgakov’s Woland. Only instead of a session of magic with subsequent exposure, he conducts a detailed analysis of cases from his own practice and the practice of psychotherapists present at the meeting.
But there is definitely something magical in the ease with which Otto Kernberg penetrates the depths of such a mysterious matter as sexuality. He created a modern psychoanalytic theory of personality and his own psychoanalytic method, proposed a new approach to the treatment of borderline personality disorders and a new look at narcissism. And then suddenly he changed the direction of research and amazed everyone with a book about love and sexuality. Understanding the subtle nuances of these delicate relationships can be envied not only by his fellow psychologists, but also by poets, perhaps.
Psychologies: Is human sexuality amenable to scientific study?
Otto Kernberg: Difficulties arise with the study of physiological processes: it is necessary to look for volunteers who are ready to make love in sensors, with special equipment and under the supervision of scientists. But from a psychological point of view, I don’t see any problems, except for one thing: psychologists and therapists are often embarrassed to ask the right questions about sex life.
Psychologists? Not their clients?
In fact of the matter! It is not so much the clients who are shy, but the psychotherapists themselves. And it’s completely in vain: if you ask the right questions that follow from the logic of the conversation, then you will definitely get the information that you need. Apparently, many therapists lack the experience and knowledge to understand exactly what questions about the client’s sex life should be asked — and at what point.
It is important that the therapist is intelligent, emotionally open, and has sufficient personal maturity. But at the same time, he needs the ability to perceive primitive experiences, not to be too tight and limited.
Are there areas of life closed to research?
It seems to me that we can and should study everything. And the main obstacle is the attitude of society towards certain manifestations of sexuality. It is not scientists, psychoanalysts, or clients that hinder this kind of research, but society. I don’t know how it is in Russia, but in the USA today, for example, it is unthinkably difficult to study everything related to sexuality in children.
An ongoing relationship can lead to the achievement of mature sexual love. Or maybe not
The irony is that it was American scientists who were once the pioneers in this field of knowledge. But try now to ask for funding for research related to child sexuality. At best, they will not give you money, and at worst, they can report you to the police. Therefore, this kind of research is almost non-existent. But they are important for understanding how sexuality develops at different ages, in particular, how sexual orientation is formed.
If we are not talking about children, but about adults: How long is the concept of mature sexual love, about which you write a lot, related to biological age?
In a physiological sense, a person matures for sexual love in adolescence or in early youth. But if he suffers, for example, from a severe personality disorder, then reaching maturity may take longer. At the same time, life experience plays an important role, especially when it comes to people with a normal or neurotic personality organization.
In any case, one should not think that mature sexual love is a relationship that is available only to people over 30 or over 40 years old. Such relationships are quite accessible even to 20-year-olds.
Once I noticed that the degree of personal pathology of each of the partners does not allow predicting how their life together will turn out. It happens that two absolutely healthy people are connected, and this is a real hell. And sometimes both partners have severe personality disorders, but a great relationship.
What role does the experience of living together with one partner play? Can three failed marriages «together» provide the necessary experience that will lead to mature sexual love?
I think if a person is able to learn, then from failures he also draws his lessons. Therefore, even unsuccessful marriages will help to become more mature and ensure success in a new partnership. But if a person has serious psychological difficulties, then he does not learn anything, but simply continues to make the same mistakes from marriage to marriage.
A constant relationship with the same partner can similarly lead to the achievement of mature sexual love. Or they may not lead — I repeat once again: a lot depends on the type of psychological organization of the individual.
What new things do you know about love and sexuality that Freud, for example, did not know or could not know?
We need to start with the fact that we do not understand very well what Freud knew and did not know. He himself said that he did not want to write about love until it ceased to be a problem for him. But so, in fact, he did not write anything. From which we can conclude that he did not solve this problem in his entire life. You should not blame him for this: after all, this is very human and not at all surprising. A great many people cannot solve this problem all their lives.
But from a scientific point of view, today we know much more about love than Freud. For example, he believed that by investing libido in love relationships, we use up its “reserves”. This is a deep delusion. Libido is not oil or coal, so that its «reserves» can be depleted. By investing in relationships, we enrich ourselves at the same time.
Freud believed that the super-ego in women is not as pronounced as in men. This is also a mistake. Freud thought that penis envy is a powerful force that affects women. And this is true, but men are also affected by envy of the feminine nature, and Freud ignored this. In a word, psychoanalysis has not stood still all these years.
You argue that freedom in a mature sexual relationship allows you to treat your partner as an object.
I mean only that in the context of a healthy, harmonious sexual relationship, all impulses of sexuality can be involved: manifestations of sadism, masochism, voyeurism, exhibitionism, fetishism, and so on. And the partner becomes the object of satisfaction of these sadistic or masochistic aspirations. This is absolutely natural, any sexual impulses always include a mixture of both erotic and aggressive components.
It is not necessary for a couple to vote for the same candidate in an election. It is much more important to have similar ideas about good and evil
It is only important to remember that in a mature relationship, the partner who becomes the object of these impulses agrees to their manifestation and enjoys what is happening. Otherwise, of course, there is no need to talk about mature love.
What would you wish a young couple on the eve of the wedding?
I would wish them to enjoy themselves and each other. Do not limit yourself to imposed ideas about what is right and wrong in sex, do not be afraid to fantasize, seek and find pleasure. In addition, it is important that their daily life is based on the coincidence of desires. So that they can share responsibilities, together solve the tasks facing them.
And finally, it would be great if their value systems at least did not come into conflict. This does not necessarily mean that they must vote for the same candidate in the presidential election. It is much more important that they have similar ideas about good and evil, spiritual aspirations. They can become the basis for a common system of values, for collective morality on the scale of one particular couple. And this is the most reliable foundation for strong partnerships and their most reliable protection.